[tommyedison]

Who do you think was better. I personally think that John Galt was much better than Howard Roark. I don't understand that if Howard Roark was as perfect as John Galt, then why did he befriend Gail Wynand, a man who worked by force. Infact his friendship with Wynand was more important than his friendship with anybody else. I mean, John Galt didn't make friends with Robert Stadler or Fred Kinnan.

[jfortun]

Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead take place in a discreet universes. If Howard Roark had existed in a world with John Galt and Fransisco, then perhaps Gail Wynand would not have been a friend as better alternatives existed. Perhaps in that same world Gail Wynand could have become a man whose actions and values were fully consistant and they would remain friends after all.

As it is, I understand Roark's desire to have a friendship with someone who at least in part shares his values especially in world devoid of John Galt.

There may be other ways in determining who was the better man, but I don't think rating their friendships is one of them.

From a literary perspective, I find Howard Roark to be a more appealing personality than John Galt.

[JRoberts]

Why do you pit them against one another?

[Concerto of Atlantis]

It is important to note that although Howard Roark made friends with Wynand, he never ever endorsed the deplorable parts of Wynand's character. They had some shared values, and this was the foundation for the friendship. I think this sort of friendship - whether it be in fiction or in day-to-day life is perfectly moral.

[AwakeAndFree]

John Galt as a character is not as fully developed as Howard Roark is. We don't have a full novel to get to know him, just the last few chapters.

But I find nothing wrong with Roark being friends with Wynand. If you ask me, Galt would have made friends with Wynand himself, had he known him. Though he might not want him in the valley...

[Som Guy]

As far as I can see they are nearly the same when it comes to ethics and morality.... but it is clear that John is by far a better producer, just think about how useful that motor would be, while Roark seems to posess better asthetic ability and seems to be physically stronger. Really there is no "general" good, the word good requires a direction. And relating to the argument of Howard's friendship to Gail, counldn't the same sort of thing be said about Galt and his friendship with Dagny while she was still supporting the looters?

[Concerto of Atlantis]

I think that there was a big difference between Dagny and Gail in that Dagny was honestly mistaken while Gail would have known that what he was doing was wrong.

[tommyedison]

erandror, on Sep 16 2004, 09:14 AM, said:

John Galt as a character is not as fully developed as Howard Roark is. We don't have a full novel to get to know him, just the last few chapters.

But I find nothing wrong with Roark being friends with Wynand. If you ask me, Galt would have made friends with Wynand himself, had he known him. Though he might not want him in the valley...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think Galt would have made friends with Wynand. I think his standards were higher. Also, I feel that Galt's character is stronger. For example, towards the end of the Fountainhead, there is a scene where Howard Roark feels his friendship with Wynand disintegrating and for the first time in his life he thinks about compromise but shakes the thought away knowing that all compromise is useless. Now, I cannot imagine Galt in such a situation. Such a thought would never even occur to Galt.

[Betsy]

tommyedison, on Sep 18 2004, 01:51 AM, said:

I feel that Galt's character is stronger. For example, towards the end of the Fountainhead, there is a scene where Howard Roark feels his friendship with Wynand disintegrating and for the first time in his life he thinks about compromise but shakes the thought away knowing that all compromise is useless. Now, I cannot imagine Galt in such a situation. Such a thought would never even occur to Galt.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it DID.

Atlas Shrugged, on Part Three / Chapter V,Their Brothers' Keepers, said:

"Ten years, Dagny … except that once there were a few weeks when I had you before me, in plain sight, within reach, not hurrying away, but held still, as on a lighted stage, a private stage for me to watch… and I watched you for hours through many evenings ... in the lighted window of an office that was called the John Galt Line.… And one night—"

Her breath was a faint gasp. "Was it you, that night?"

"Did you see me?"

"I saw your shadow… on the pavement… pacing back and forth … it looked like a struggle … it looked like—" She stopped; she did not want to say "torture."

"It was," he said quietly. "That night, I wanted to walk in, to face you, to speak, to … That was the night I came closest to breaking my oath, when I saw you slumped across your desk, when I saw you broken by the burden you were carrying—"

and again

Atlas Shrugged, on Part Three / Chapter V,Their Brothers' Keepers, said:

"I had never seen Hank Rearden, only pictures of him in the newspapers. I knew that he was in New York, that night, at some conference of big industrialists. I wanted to have just one look at him. I went to walk at the entrance of the hotel where that conference was held.
[...]
And then I saw him. He wore an expensive trenchcoat and a hat slanting across his eyes. He walked swiftly, with the kind of assurance that has to be earned, as he'd earned it.
[...]
I caught a glimpse of him as he stood with his hand on the door of his car, his head lifted, I saw the brief flare of a smile under the slanting brim, a confident smile, impatient and a little amused. And then, for one instant, I did what I had never done before, what most men wreck their lives on doing—I saw that moment out of context, I saw the world as he made it look, as if it matched him, as if he were its symbol—I saw a world of achievement, of unenslaved energy, of unobstructed drive through purposeful years to the enjoyment of one's reward—I saw, as I stood in the rain in a crowd of vagrants, what my years would have brought me, if that world had existed, and I felt a desperate longing—he was the image of everything I should have been … and he had everything that should have been mine.… But it was only a moment. Then I saw the scene in full context again and in all of its actual meaning [...]

[AMERICONORMAN]

Thanks Betsy for your last post.

Of course, even Galt suffered from the temptation to compromise but his will was so strong that he was able to act according to his principles.

No, Wynand suffered from an error of knowledge. Look at his childhood. There's a reason why Miss Rand told us that story--which can be a movie in itself. The story of his childhood allowed the reader to understand what evidence led him to come to the conclusion: that integrity is impossible. And that story is what tells us the moment when, based on his own evidence, he came to the wrong and tragic conclusion.

He did committ a moral breach but that was later in the novel. When after, his realization that he had a second chance, he chose to not defend Roark, and remained committed to his paper. This is why, incidentally, why in the movie, he commits suicide. (Miss Rand wrote that screenplay).

Both Roark and Galt are equally moral. Galt, however, is the only true genius that Ayn Rand ever depicted. That is the only difference. So according to the standard of intelligence, Galt is the better man.

But if you look at both novels from an aesthetic standpoint, Roark is the better hero. It is in the Fountainhead, with the character of Roark, that Miss Rand creates the momentous romantic situation. To see Roark's struggle is agonizing, more agonizing than that of Galt's. Roark is bombarded with bomb after bomb, but the pain only goes down so deep; differentiating Roark from the other characters. Aesthetically, Roark is the most interesting. Why? Because he keeps you interested: "How much more can this guy bare," is the omnipresent question. Which is why the elevator scene at the end is one of the most ecstatic in world literature.

We hardly see Galt's suffering, we mostly hear about it. Atlas Shrugged is a social novel. Galt struggles to gain people that will reflect his soul; Roark struggles to keep his soul--which is why The Fountainhead is an overture to Atlas Shrugged.

Americo.